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The seller added:
This is a very rare neckerchief from Area 2-D in northern New York. At the first and second conclave for this Area, the neckerchief just had the 3 W’s, the 1951 had flocked W’s and the 1952 had 3 silk screened W’s and an arrow. You have to accept my word on this, only because I was there.
So I went to Don Txxxxx the Lodge 402 historian for the rest of the story:
It is most definitely NOT an Area 2-D Conclave neckerchief; I have in the lodge’s archives the original mimeographed program for this conclave held at Crumhorn Mt. Camp and there is no mention of a “generic” neckerchief of this type for sale then. This neckerchief is oversized (35x35x51in) SSC’d in RED on what appears to be cotton sheeting (not lightweight cotton yardgoods commonly used for commercial screen printed neckerchiefs in the 1950s. Over the years I have accumulated almost a dozen of this neckerchief, all originally from the Onteroraus Lodge area only. Several have badly misprinted screenwork (one has the printing off by almost 1 1/2″ from the margin), which leads me to believe it was locally made and not ordered from a commercial supplier. While this neckerchief could conceivably still have been available at the 1952 conclave, I have never got information that it was made for that event.
Crumhorn Mountain Scout Reservation is the home of Onteroraus Lodge, so it is likely that the neckerchief was available at least for trade from some of the early Lodge 402 brothers.
Don adds:
” Onteroraus Lodge N1 1948-1950. This is a unusually large Order of the Arrow neckerchief, 35x35x51in., red screened WWWs pierced by a red right-facing arrow, red bands on white cotton sheeting. According to charter lodge member Ken Bxxxxx, this neckerchief was made available to all of the 40 new brothers inducted in 1948. The neckerchief carries no specific Onteroraus Lodge designation and may have been locally handmade.”
So that’s the rest of the story. 1952 Area 2-D Neckerchief or 402N1. You decide.
[phpbay]Onteroraus Lodge, 5[/phpbay]
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“They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.” –Benjamin Franklin
To share information about new or newly discovered Order of the Arrows patches, flaps, odd-shapes, neckerchiefs, event and chapter issues from New York State Order of the Arrow Lodges, warnings about fakes, spoof, and reproductions and any other information that may be of interest to New York State OA Collectors.
2 thoughts on “Onteroraus Lodge #402N1 or 1952 2-D Conclave Neckerchief?”
Bill-
Great sleuthing!
-Ray
Bill, Ray et al,
I was a very active trader and collector during my time in scouts and the OA back in the late 60’s to 1976. Mostly Camp Russell and OA. Specifically 2B and then Kamargo’s history back to 1945 (2D and 2G) for event patches and neckerchiefs. I lost my entire collection during the 80’s and 90’s due to hard times. Today, life is better and after having attended 2 Eagle ceremonies in the past 2 years I decided to get my collection back to where it was and then some.
In any event, I am the owner of the 1952 Conclave neckerchief from Area 2D that was on eBay recently and what this blog is about. I saw Ray Gould’s post to this blog along with the historian from Lodge 402 and decided to jump in with an intro on the subject.
When I was in the Kamargo Lodge, I never believed that the current N1 (actually 1951 2D Conference) was our first lodge neckerchief. I fell away from that argument over the years of course and want to take up the supporting conversation again. There was never any first person account or real documentation that proved it was our first neckerchief. I can’t speak on the Onteroraus Lodge history however, Don Txxxxx the Lodge 402 historian, states that it is not a 1952 2D Conference Neckerchief. Even so, I am willing to bet the same is true for the 1951 neckerchief, the purported first neckerchief for Kamargo Lodge but is really the neckerchief from the 1951 2D conference.
I am in the process of collecting a written first person account to support both but more specifically Kamargo’s history. I know I will meet alot of resistance. If Chuck Squire were still alive he would be the first to complain. Clint Mxxx, an avid Kamargo historian, is still alive and I will be sending my Op Ed piece to him for review.
Who is ever right on these issues? My simple answer is the people who were actually in attendance. And they were few.
Mark E. – Eagle Scout in 1972. OA Vice Chief of Kamargo Lodge #294 in 1974-1975. Camp Russell 1970-1976. 2B Conclaves 1972-1976.
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To share information about new or newly discovered Order of the Arrows patches, flaps, odd-shapes, neckerchiefs, event and chapter issues from New York State Order of the Arrow Lodges, warnings about fakes, spoof, and reproductions and any other information that may be of interest to New York State OA Collectors.
Issue Numbers are subject to change as I become aware of new issues, errors or omissions in listings.
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Clicking on the image will bring you to the auction for the next few months.
Bill-
Great sleuthing!
-Ray
Bill, Ray et al,
I was a very active trader and collector during my time in scouts and the OA back in the late 60’s to 1976. Mostly Camp Russell and OA. Specifically 2B and then Kamargo’s history back to 1945 (2D and 2G) for event patches and neckerchiefs. I lost my entire collection during the 80’s and 90’s due to hard times. Today, life is better and after having attended 2 Eagle ceremonies in the past 2 years I decided to get my collection back to where it was and then some.
In any event, I am the owner of the 1952 Conclave neckerchief from Area 2D that was on eBay recently and what this blog is about. I saw Ray Gould’s post to this blog along with the historian from Lodge 402 and decided to jump in with an intro on the subject.
When I was in the Kamargo Lodge, I never believed that the current N1 (actually 1951 2D Conference) was our first lodge neckerchief. I fell away from that argument over the years of course and want to take up the supporting conversation again. There was never any first person account or real documentation that proved it was our first neckerchief. I can’t speak on the Onteroraus Lodge history however, Don Txxxxx the Lodge 402 historian, states that it is not a 1952 2D Conference Neckerchief. Even so, I am willing to bet the same is true for the 1951 neckerchief, the purported first neckerchief for Kamargo Lodge but is really the neckerchief from the 1951 2D conference.
I am in the process of collecting a written first person account to support both but more specifically Kamargo’s history. I know I will meet alot of resistance. If Chuck Squire were still alive he would be the first to complain. Clint Mxxx, an avid Kamargo historian, is still alive and I will be sending my Op Ed piece to him for review.
Who is ever right on these issues? My simple answer is the people who were actually in attendance. And they were few.
Mark E. – Eagle Scout in 1972. OA Vice Chief of Kamargo Lodge #294 in 1974-1975. Camp Russell 1970-1976. 2B Conclaves 1972-1976.